unobtrusive cylinder sleeve

[Dave Schultz]

I have the #3 Cylinder weeping water about 3/4 up the wall and I'm hoping to be able to sleeve it. Dallas will pull and disassemble today and tomorrow, and we'll take to sonic check.

After running NMCA for 4-years, you get to know who knows what they're talking about (many are engine builders of machine shop owners) and who isn't.

A couple of the racers (who's opinions I respect) were telling me to make sure to use the new unobtrusive cylinder sleeve instead of the one that is held in by pressing in an oversize. They say that the old style puts too much stress around the cylinder -- and will often cause problems with the block or cylinders next to it. The new style unobtrusive cylinder sleeve is made possible because of a new Loctite adhesive. You slather the outside of the sleeve with this new adhesive and shove it into the hole -- and 24 hours later it is ready for machining. These guys swear that the sleeve ain't gonna move.

It was also suggested to full fill this stock block -- especially since I've had corrosion problems with freeze plugs in the last year. I frankly don't know what the oversize of my cylinders are (yet) but I might be at the raged edge of wall thickness. I've always been concerned with overheating on a full-fill, but both Neighbor's cars, Skippy's, Millward, and Midile are all full fills, go faster than I do and have no issues.

I thought this would be a great topic for opinions.

[Dave Schultz]

I believe it is also referred to as non-interference or slip-fit.

A search had a couple of references of Loctite 640 to do this.

I can't find any installation papers on the slip fit -- but did find this on Interference fit www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/83778/cylinder_sleeve_installation_procedures.aspx saying to go no more than .0015˝ to .002˝ of interference fit

I've searched non-interference fit cylinder sleeve and other key words and really haven't found anything but interference or pressed-fit.

[Dave Schultz]

I was told that the engine was a 413 -- but it (block and heads) appears to be a 426 Max Wedge

www.moparstyle.com/forums/classic-mopar-muscle-technical-q/15401-2406730-1-426-wedge.html#post143537

[longram60]

I cracked my number 6 cylinder sleeve for the second time at the BG Hot Rod reunion. I don't know anything about the process, but they were by two different shops. I'm suspecting the head in my case and will check it out. I don't think I will sleeve this block again.

[fastdiesel]

I've worked with loctite for years in the diesel reman business (thousands of "OEM factory" reman applications).

Bottom line, for the long run, loctite will not stand up. It's a short term band aid at best. For a drag race application that runs under power and in the heat for seconds at a time....maybe...

I know I'll catch heck over my comments, but for the long haul, diesel application in the heat zone, loctite turns to white powder with time.

Press it in, true the others, fill as far as you dare, and thrash on it (and build a spare, quickly)!

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it (unless I change my mind).

Speaking of spares, what happened to all the extra engines you had?

[texoutsider]

He still has em............and I agree about the glue in sleeve...just won't stay under hard use.

go traditional, step em in and saw off the top. Fill the block, let it cure a bit and hone em to fit.

But with 440 blocks so easy to find, why?.........cut another block and toss in yer stuff........but fill it first............

M.

[Dave Schultz]

I'm down to one 499ci Low Deck (that I have about $11000 in) and one 408 Small Block -- plus the 383 that came out of the black Coronet. I'm not sure if the headers would work with the low deck -- and I have almost as money in that motor as I do the whole car.

I don't want to spend a lot of money on what will be the back up car to the black Coronet and Whale next year -- and so I'd like to be able to reuse the cam, lifters, heads, pistons, crank, and rods -- so long as there is nothing wrong with them, which I have no reason to suspect. I also liked the consistency of that engine. Until recently -- I could make it go 11.00 at any track with a little adding and subtracting of weight. I was able to launch at 2500 and shift at 6500 -- which was pretty easy on it.

Further, after decoding the engine and heads, that motor is a real 426 Max wedge. www.moparstyle.com/forums/drag-racing-mopars/15401-2406730-1-426-wedge.html I really need to save that motor.

[texoutsider]

Take it over to Cruz and have him put a sleeve in it..then partly fill the block...then hone to fit..put yer stuff back in and go.

We ran 8 sleeves in our "Lucille" engine.....for over 8 years.

M.

[Dave Schultz]

Yeah that's what we'll do. Hopefully a sonic test and inspection will allow me to use the block. Finding another wouldn't be easy.

[texoutsider]

I have a friend with a 440 out of a motorhome that is for sale ...thinking a couple of hundred for it all.

M.

[texoutsider]

Dave, we had one of the "slip fit" sleeves installed in one of our engines.......it slipped and ruined the engine after some sloppy machine work by a local shop. NEVERMORE.

[Dave Schultz]

Mark -- the engine is disassembled -- I'll post some photos that I took with my phone.

The pistons and rods look good -- although two rod bearing were starting to fail on 3 & 4. The crank didn't get scored -- so this might have been a blessing. Just before this race we'd changed the oil to Royal Purple and cut open the oil filter -- so this is a new feature that could not have started more than three passes ago. Visually the block looks great -- and I'm hoping that a sonic test shows a sleeve and hard block will fix the block -- and that a new timing set, bearings, and rings will be the only parts needed.

I have a ton of 440 blocks - but I want to not have to spend the money for the pistons if I don't have to. I think the crank and rods on a 426 are the same as a 440 (but I haven't verified before someone jumps all over me).

I dropped the block and crank off at Cruz' at lunch time and asked him to call me so I can tell him what happened, and he can check it over. I wanted him to measure a cylinder so I would know what the overbore was -- but he was at the doctor.

I feel real good with this motor being able to go back together with a sleeve -- or maybe two. I'll most likely go with the interference sleeve instead of the Locktite sleeve. The hard block should help with the surrounding cylinders.

I have the hard block, timing set and the bearings on the shelf -- so I should be able to get out of this with the minimal amount of pain.

[Dave Schultz]

Photos of the engine torn down. #3 rod Bearing was trashed -- but the crank looks fine. I'm guessing the bearing took the punishment from the water entering the cylinder -- as the H-Beam rod looks straight as an arrow. I shut of the car within seconds (after one last glance at the oil pressure -- which was 75 pounds) of hearing something not right just after crossing the stripe.

[fastdiesel]

Need to check the hardness on the crank ASAP. When a bearing looks like that, and things turn colors, the hardness may be gone bye-bye.

Rod needs to be replaced. I wouldn't trust a resize/new bolts......

[Dave Schultz]

Crank is at the Machinist and in the process of being tested, as is the block. What looks to be bluing on the rod is really just my shadow when taking the photo with an iPhone. It really doesn't look like that. For as destroyed as the #3 rod bearing looks -- the crank isn't blue or scored -- but it is being tested.

We'd just change the oil and opened the filter 4 passes earlier -- and all was well. Something didn't sound quite right with the motor just as I crossed the line, I looked at the oil pressure (it was good) and shut down the car and parked it at the turn off, and towed it back to the pits. I really think it just happened, and that I caught it early enough.

That said, the block and crank are being tested, and Damon (who will reassemble) will come to inspect the pistons, rods, pins, bearing, ... before the weekend. I'll know more about the status after we measure the pistons/holes and see if the pistons are large enough (a .070 over 426 piston is a 440, and it was common to bore 426 blocks .100 over to use .030 over 440 pistons) to go into a 440 block I have. Collecting information right now to determine the best options.